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Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

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Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby rgolob » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:36

Če koga zanima, kaj predlaga PMA glede spremembe pravil na področju tekmovanj... sffa.org ( pdf )


Spodaj sprememba pravil tekmovanj, kot jih predlaga Nesler.

The new competition class
Current situation:
Competition paragliding is currently conducted using half-heartedly tested EN-D class gliders.

From 2014 onwards, the PMA or better, the competition commission of the PMA wants to introduce a new class for competition gliders separate from the EN-D class.Here an excerpt from the last protocol: The PMA is convinced that EN limitation of competition gliders is a dangerous rule for test pilots. Experience has proved it. Test pilots are not less precious than others. Current EN-D competition gliders are restricted to a top speed of 60 km/h. Under the new class regulations 65 km/h is to be allowed, and glider testing will not be performed according to current Norms.

This is a dangerous paradox: on the one hand the PMA recognises that testing current EN-D gliders is too dangerous for professional test pilots, on the other hand the new class should allow gliders to fly even faster and not need to be regularly tested.

Differing commercial interests under the PMA competition commission members can easily be imagined, when trying to explain the absurdity of this recommendation.

Who is flying competitions?

The goal of paragliding competitions still is, as it always has been, to promote paragliding as a sport and to make it interesting for the media and active pilots.
Currently, competition paragliding is more dangerous than Formula 1 car racing. Numbers of sponsors and organisers are declining due to negative headlines, and media publicity is only about accidents. Hobby pilots who do not fly constantly and earn their living from flying, are no longer prepared to take the risks necessary in competitions.

Competitions should be for hobby pilots who wish to compare their flying skills with others in their free time, and not for factory pilots who can compensate the risks with their additional experience!
If necessary, an additional class for factory pilots could be introduced to allow paid professionals to compete on experimental prototypes and defend their manufacturers honour!

Pilots who should be able to fly competitions

Weekend pilots, often with families, almost always with a full time job and correspondingly limited free time. These are the big majority of pilots and often form the interface to the non-flying public. When they report of their positive experiences and impressions from a race, then the public will become more interested in flying. If they come in on a Monday, and explain how they barely escaped death during a hard-core race, then at best they will be looked on sympathetically as mad idiots.

The answer

For the big majority of pilots we need:

A glider class where pilot skills are tested, and not who has the best contacts and newest material from a particular manufacturer.
Gliders which can be flown by weekend pilots, and which have been certified.
A fair division in weight classes, so that lightweight and women pilots have a chance of winning.
Gliders which can compete for at least two seasons, so that pilots, particularly in these crisis times, can afford to partake in competitions.

How should we define this class?

Ideally, gliders matching these prerequisites should be in the EN-C class. To prevent the EN-C class becoming misused and extended as with the current EN-D class, the following restrictions must be applied:

Aspect ratio max. 6.0
Vmax max. 55 km/h
Wing loading max. 4.0 kg/m²
Minimum profile thickness 17%
Max. cell spacing 60 cm
Load testing according to the EN Norm
No folding lines are to be used for testing
Ideally, several testing centers should certify the gliders (e.g. max. weight DHV, min. weight EAPR etc.)

Benefits

Safe gliders for all competition pilots

Fair competition conditions, where pilot skills are measured instead of material differences and risk acceptance
Risks are reduced for organisers, more competitions will follow
Fewer accidents and more fun make competitions more attractive for spectators, media interest increases and sponsoring increases
Two or better three weight classes make for fair competition under lightweight and women pilots
Manufacturers can no longer achieve performance gains by pushing safety limits, only through genuine new developments which will also profit lower class gliders
The better image of paragliding will increase media and public interest in the sport

Disadvantages

Manufacturers with successful products currently used in competitions will protest initially, as they loose their material advantage
Some pilots who mainly profit from material and risk acceptance will protest violently against this class
Specific marketing will be necessary to introduce this class as the new Formula 1 paragliding competition and achieve media recognition

Further arguments against introduction

The much quoted “way it feels”. Pilots wanting this extra kick can of course fly prototypes outside competitions. Should they crash, then at least the organisers, fellow competitors and competition sport in general will not suffer too much from it.
Research and development will suffer. This is ridiculous, R&D is ultimately for serial production gliders, and this new class is a serial class!
Freedom of choice? Correct, in organised competition we have to protect pilots from themselves and the manufacturers, as is the case in Formula 1, Motorcycling, Gliding and Sailing. Pilots seeking total freedom should do so outside of organised competitions.

Marketing

This new competition class must be marketed properly:
Separate internet homepage with all information and news updates
High prize money
Plenty of media presence (specialised media profit from this as well)
Intensive sponsoring
Competition training from pilot associations for pilots
Participation at large trade fairs such as the ISPO
We need to make competition flying safer, more interesting and more satisfying for all those involved, instead of following individual interests at cost to pilots and the sport in general.

Michael Nesler
Translation: Peter Wild
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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby igorer » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:54

To je Neslerjev predlog in ne predlog PMA. In je bil že zavržen in se o njem sploh ne debatira več. Rzen mogoče kje na forumu. Na mizi so sedaj čisto drugi predlogi.

Je pa sprejeto pravilo o dveh rezervah, ki bo začelo veljati čez 2 leti.
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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby rgolob » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:43

Igor predlog PMA tukaj http://www.sffa.org/index.php/dokumenti/file/47-pma-proposal-to-civl-2012

Kolk je star ta Neslerjev predlog ne vem, bil pa je včeraj poslan s strani Rasmus Rohlff-a ( generalni sekretar EUPH ), poleg zgornjega PMA priporočila.

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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby igorer » Mon Nov 12, 2012 19:25

Ja o predlogu PMA se debatira, mendem ko so Neslerjevega zavrgli. Res pa je da EHPU neki pritiska, sam bolj v smeri načina certificiranja EN C in EN D padal.
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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby jurijf » Mon Nov 12, 2012 23:30

Saj vem, da sem tečen in se ponavljam. Samo da bo zapisano:

Če bo CIVL nadaljeval v smeri, kot ga predlaga PMA, se bo ponovno 'ustrelil v koleno' kot se je že enkrat v preteklosti.

Predvsem se zgornja trditev tiče popolnega zanemarjanja obnašanja kupole v zraku. Da pa ne bo pomote, se recimo z logiko ciljnega stožca povsem strinjam, medtem ko dve rezervi pomenita, da se bodo tekmovalci morali sprijazniti s tem, da bodo redno viseli na drevju, ker kupola, ki jo je potrebno reševati z rezervo (kaj šele z dvema), enostavno ni za v zrak.

Žal se ponavlja stara zgodba, ko si nekateri 'egoti' ne dajo vzeti igrače in pljuvajo recimo po Nestlerjevem tekstu, ki je na koncu koncev povsem argumentirano menenje nekoga, ki se profesionalno ukvarja z konstrukcijo padal. In če sledimo Nestlerju (da ne bom samo jaz težil) - padala EN-D so na meji razumnega za letenje, padala, ki pa ne dosegajo niti EN-D pa niso za v zrak! Konstruktorji (tudi nekateri svetovno priznani piloti) prelagajo delo, ki bi ga morali sami opraviti - razvoj vsaj relativno varnih kupol - na testne pilote, ki nato po službeni dolžnosti odkrivajo napake, ki bi jih morali odpraviti konstrukterji, še preden pošljejo padalo na test.

Zato ponavljam, smer v katero gre PMA glede varnosti padal je NEUMNOST, ki jo bodo plačali rekreativni piloti z povsem nepotrebnimi omejitvami in neumnostmi, ki jih bo zagrešila 'oblast'. Le ta lahko, tako kot je v primeru balonarjev pometla zraven še tandemaše, z podobnimi manevri zaradi nesreč tekmovalcev postavi v kot tudi rekreativce.

Tukaj javno in naravnost pozivam podpredsednika CIVL Igorja Eržena, da ponovno razmisli o svojih stališčih in vpliva na delovanje CIVL v smislu in smeri Nestlerjevega teksta in ne v smeri 'budalaštin' PMA.

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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby igorer » Tue Nov 13, 2012 18:32

Logiko ciljnega stožca, predvidevam, da še vedno govoriš o stožcu s konusom 4:1, verjetno ne bo nič, ker je na mizi že dopolnjena verzija.

Kar se tiče dveh rezerv, mislim, da je na mestu, saj kot kažejo zadnje nesreče, kar 4 od 5-ih niso mogli vreči rezerve, ker je bila ročka na napačni strani. Zmajarji imate to enostavno rešeno, pri, padalu, je stvar bolj kompleksna.

Predlog PMA tudi približno ni dokončen in stvari gredo v smeri minimalnih testov. Kakšnih itd. je preuranjeno govoriti. WG dela na tem.

Neslerjev predlog, zajema EN C z dodatnimi omejativami, recimo vitkost 6.0, ...mislim, da v realnosti nimajo velikega smisla, in bi naredili samo še večjo štalo na trgu padal. Tudi EHPU priznava, da so EN testi totalna blamaža in da je nujno potrebno globji poseg v sam način testiranja.

Sicer je pa moje stališče še vedno enako. Ga zadnjih nekaj let nisem spremenil. Vpliva na PMA in na to, kaj oni dajo v javnot pa nimam.
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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby jurijf » Tue Nov 13, 2012 19:55

Zmajarji imamo padalo res enostavno rešeno, ZELO redko ga uporabljamo, sam v povprečju na 17 let, pa sem eden redkih, ki ga je v življenju sploh uporabil, nazadnje pred 30+leti :-)

EN 926 so in niso blamaža, kakor gledaš. Problem je v osnovi v subjektivnosti pilota, ne pa v samih predpisanih manevrih in testu. Zato se razvijajo sistemi za objektivizacijo manevrov. Je pa to edini delujoč sistem (pa še pravni okvir ima), za katerega do sedaj nihče v CIVL ni podal nobenega konstruktivnega predloga dopolnitve, vse nujne korekcije (spirala pri EN-A,B..) pa so bile hitro uvedene. Delovna skupina pri EN pa mislim da se tudi formira (tudi na stroške EHPU).
Postavitev samo minimalnih kriterijev pa JE blamaža, ki bo privedla vemo kam. PMA ima svoje interese in jih pač brani, zato se mora CIVL postaviti za preživetvene (ne življenske) interese pilotov. WG ne bo naredil nič, ker do sedaj ni spacal niti predloga, zato o kakšnem uspešnem delu za 2013 lahko kar pozabiš. In kot sem napisal: ČE BO CIVL... torej je žogica pri CIVL.

Pri Nestlerju vsak vidi, to kar želi. Omejitev na EN-C ali omejitev vitkosti. Nestler je v svojem življenju naredil več padal kot vsi delegati CIVL skupaj in ga je vredno vsaj prebrati in o njegovih predlogih pošteno razmisliti. In če si CIVL postavi za cilj povečanje varnosti, potem ga ne more kar tako zanemariti.

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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby igorer » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:01

Dragi Jurij

Glede dela WG se ne bom vtikal. Kar bodo pripravili to bo na mizi. Nisem v WG ker nisem dovolj kompetenten. Lahko le poročam v ketoro smer gre debata, saj vpogled v to pa imam.

Kar se tiče EN standarda. Vsi in pri tem mislim tudi EHPU so mnenja, da ni dober, ne vem zakaj ti govoriš da je. Standard ima veliko pomanjklivosti. Vam zmajarjem je relativno enostavno saj EN standardov nimate. Vse kar imate so sprogi pa še teh ne znate meriti ali kontrolirati (ne vsi, da ne bo pomote).
To da CIVL ni podal nobenega konstruktivnega razloga je vedarle jasna. V CIVL smo samo birokrati in nimamo pojma o letenju, zato se pač obračamo na inštitucije ki o letenju vedo več kot mi.
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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby jurijf » Wed Nov 14, 2012 19:34

Samo za osvežitev spomina:
oktober 2011 citiram zaključek:

"If CIVL really is asking for safer paragliders to be flown in FAI cat1 competitions, then in the eyes of the Paraglider Manufacturers Association the only way to go is to restrict these competitions to gliders wich are tested following the existing EN-926 standard.

Best regards

Hans Bausenwein
CEO Paragliders Manufacturers Association"

Celoten dopis na:
http://www.paragliding-slovenia.si/inde ... iew&idev=9

Toliko o stališčih PMA, ki se očitno precej obračajo po vetru trenutnih interesov in ne v interesu kakršnega koli napredka pri varnosti.

PS
Uradno stališče EHPU ostaja EN-926 in delo na njegovem razvoju, za kar tudi namenja sredstva. Citiram del zapisnika septemberskega sestanka:
"Concerning gliders taking part in CAT 1 competitions, the EHPU recommends that CIVL should continue with the regulation that only EN certified gliders are allowed. For a possible improvement of safety and to share the burden which is now only on the EN-Certificate, a “competition class” based on EN plus additional construction regulations could be considered."

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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby finch » Tue Feb 05, 2013 17:16

Pravkar sem tole prejel na email (če kdo slučajno ni in bi rad, da njegov glas o čem odloča). Je pa (kot jasno piše) namenjeno le tekmovalnim pilotom.

Dear Sandi Krč

At the CIVL annual plenary meeting in Lausanne on February 16th-17th, 2013, CIVL will decide which types of paragliders will be used in FAI Category 1 paragliding cross-country competitions (World and Continental Championships) from 2014 onwards.

PMA, at CIVL's request, has worked out a proposal for a competition class, which will be the basis for the discussions at the plenary meeting.

To be able to make the best possible decision, CIVL would like to know the opinion of all paraglider cross country competition pilots on the different aspects of this proposal.

For this we created a very short survey (6 yes/no questions), which you can find here:
................ (glej spodnji tekst)

This link is uniquely tied to this survey and your email address, you can only fill it in once. Please do not forward this message. If you know of a competition pilot who did not receive this Email (many pilots have not entered their address in the WPRS), please have this pilot write to me at civl@yourstruly.ch .

The survey will close on Sunday, February 10th at 18:00 CET.

Thanks for your participation!

For CIVL
Joerg Ewald
Chairman, Software Working Group
-------------
Please note: If you do not wish to receive further emails from us, please click the link below, and you will be automatically removed from our mailing list.
https://www.surveym....
041.963.501
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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby jurijf » Tue Feb 05, 2013 21:40

Zgornja dikcija me spominja na tajni uradni list SFRJ.
Ne glede kaj sklene CIVL, jadralna padala spadajo po EU regulativi v področje nacionalne zakonodaje, ki pa v večini primerov CIVL ne priznava kot faktor, tako da se ponovno obetajo pravni problemi (da o drugih sploh ne govorim)

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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby spodbregar » Mon Feb 11, 2013 23:01

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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby igorer » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:50

Sem mal prebral tole anketo. Edina stvar s katero naj bi se večina strinjala je scoring. Vse ostalo je negotovo. Tko majhni procenti, da je skoraj brez veze.
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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby SlimTom » Tue Feb 12, 2013 19:06

Če sem prav razumel, je to UP predlog:

http://blog.syndergaard.dk/

Poleg tega omenja še, da PMA ne bo podal PMA mnenja in da naj ga poda kdor ga hoče, samostojno :)
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Re: Predlogi PMA za spremembo pravilnika tekmovanj

Postby jurijf » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:28

SlimTom wrote:Če sem prav razumel, je to UP predlog:

http://blog.syndergaard.dk/



Tole je pa zanimivo branje. Očitno ljudje ob črkah EN dobijo ošpice, obenem pa predlagajo natanko isto. Vprašanje okrog EN ali ne-EN ni pravo, pravo je , kateri testi so relevantni za vsa padala, kateri so za določena premalo/preveč itd. No tu je našteto končno nekaj predlogov. Ne bom se spuščal v to, ali so testi 'pravi' ali ne, vsaj so. Ali jih zapakiramo v EN ali PMA ali DHV v tem trenutku ni usodno. Veliko modrosti želim pri odločanju ta vikend.

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